Saving babies, or killing them?

[Today’s blog post by Sarah Terzo is part of our paid blogging program. Sarah is a pro-life atheist, a frequent contributor to Live Action News, a board member of the Pro-Life Alliance of Gays and Lesbians, and the force behind]

We live in a country where doctors can elect to kill an unborn baby at her mother’s request. At the same time, some women are so dedicated to preserving the lives of their unborn children that they will do anything to save them. They will research every possible option, see specialists, and spend thousands of dollars in medical bills in order to keep their babies aliveunless it turns out that 2, 3, 4, or 5 children result, in which case, it’s off to the abortion provider to “selectively reduce” the burden of caring for all of the children they created. Other women will undergo expensive and invasive in vitro fertilization techniques, and, when a child results, guard the life of that child passionately

All this has led to a strange situation in the United States where some unborn babies are valued to the extreme and some are considered worthless. There have been cases where a doctor works to terminate the life of a baby whose mother doesn’t want him one day and then tries to save the life of a premature baby (of the same age) whose mother does want him the next. The late Dr. Bernard Nathanson, former abortionist, describes how this strange situation became a reality right after Roe v. Wade:

In the mid-70s, I would be up on one floor, putting the hypertonic saline into a woman 23 weeks pregnant, and on another floor down, I would have someone in labor at 23 weeks, and I would be trying to salvage this baby. The nurses were caught in the same bind, the same moral whipsaw. What were we doing here, were we saving babies or were killing them?

Hypertonic saline solution was a liquid containing caustic salt and other chemicals which was injected into the uterus of a woman having an abortion. It slowly poisoned the baby to death, and then the woman would go through labor to deliver her dead child. At the time, it was the most common method of abortion in the 2nd trimester. Today, most of these abortions are done by dilation and evacuation, where the baby is torn apart with forceps. You can see a diagram of this newer procedure here.

Nathanson would later become pro-life and produce The Silent Scream, a short film which is credited with changing many hearts and minds on abortion. Dr. Nathanson attributed his own conversion to the proliferation of new technologies that allowed scientists to learn more about unborn babies and observe them in the womb (i.e. ultrasound). Perhaps the “moral whipsaw” was a factor too.

Nathanson was not the only abortionist to make an observation like this. In the 1996 book Lime 5, pro-life author Mark Crutcher quotes abortionist Dr. Don Sloan saying:

On some mornings, I leave my office, and if I turn right I go down the hallway to the [abortion facility] and terminate. I am a destroyer of pregnancies. If I turn left down the same hallway, I go toward the nursery and the labor and delivery unit and take care of the myriad of complications in women who are in the throes of problem pregnanciesand I do things to help them hold on. It’s all so schizophrenic. I have a kind of split personality.

Pro-choice author Magda Denes quoted yet another abortionist who spoke in similar terms:

You have to become a bit schizophrenic. In one room you encourage the patient that the slight irregularity of the fetal heart is not importantthat she is going to have a fine, healthy baby. Then in the next room you assure another woman on whom you just did a saline abortion, that it’s good that the heart is already irregular… She has nothing to worry about, she is not going to have a live baby… Somebody has to do it. Unfortunately, we are the executioners in this instance.

Today, most abortions are done in clinics by doctors who do nothing else. But there are still gynecologists who do a small number of abortions for their established patients and also deliver children and manage pregnancies, and they may run into the same strange situation of saving a baby one day and destroying a baby the next. And just recently, a combination abortion and childbirth center opened in Buffalo, NY.

In my next article for Secular Pro-Life, I will highlight how this double standard of viewing one child as valuable and another as worthless based outside factors (typically the mother’s opinion) affects the medical profession in more subtle ways.

102 thoughts on “Saving babies, or killing them?”

  1. So let us have a gynecologist's input here:

    Those Who Ignore History Are Doomed to Repeat It
    Posted on August 25, 2014

    For most of my career, I have been able to care for women without fear of major complications or death from abortion. However, I have not forgotten those days when safe abortion was generally unavailable. I was delighted when I delivered my first baby in 1968. But at that time in our history, the exciting events of bringing babies into this world were often countered by the tragedies of illegal abortion.

    Enough time has passed since the legalization of abortion in the US that it appears much of our society has forgotten the dangers of unsafe pregnancy termination and the desperation of women encountering an unplanned, unwanted pregnancy. It is estimated that approximately 13% of maternal deaths worldwide are due to unsafe abortion. The death rates are even higher in some countries where abortion has been totally banned.

    No one has a greater appreciation for the value of human life than those of us who dedicate our lives to the wellbeing of mothers and the delivery of their babies. No other profession has a better knowledge of the complexity of the reproductive process, the potential complications, and the tragic circumstances that can sometimes accompany pregnancy than obstetrics and gynecology. We understand the current science of embryology and factors associated with both normal and abnormal human development. We know and deeply appreciate when a human embryo reaches a stage of fetal development where survivability outside the mother becomes a possibility. We know that a safely performed outpatient pregnancy termination in the first trimester has a complication rate of approximately 0.3%, of which most are minor.

    We also know that in many cases, pregnancy termination any time prior to fetal viability is far safer than proceeding with the pregnancy. We respect the ethnic, cultural, religious, social, and moral differences that might factor into a decision to end a pregnancy. Termination of any pregnancy is difficult, but under many circumstances, it is the best alternative for a woman. She has that freedom of choice.

    During one of my many trips to Washington, DC, my wife and I took a walk to the Jefferson Memorial. After you enter the memorial, you can read Thomas Jefferson’s passionate words on religious freedom. His words prompt questions that may be answered differently according to the reader’s perspective. Was Jefferson’s expression of separation of church and state intended to entitle persons to make their own religious choices and beliefs within the moral framework of society? Should government interfere in such a personal choice as whether or not to bear a child? A birth certificate legally records our day of birth, but should the government even attempt to arbitrate the debate of scientific versus religious interpretation of the beginning of life?

    Somehow, I believe Jefferson would be greatly offended by the current legislative and judicial interference into the highly personal patient-physician relationship. Our specialty of obstetrics and gynecology ardently supports the dignity, rights, and autonomy of all women. I also believe all of us who deliver babies have an intense reverence for life. However, we must not ignore or misinterpret our country’s history of personal freedom and the history of tragic consequences of illegal, unsafe abortion. Those who ignore history are doomed to repeat it.

  2. Great post! I can't even imagine what it must be like to live with such cognitive dissonance as that of these "doctors".

  3. There have still been recent occasions where the salt method has been used,

  4. Well, can you show us what 2nd term abortion does look like? If you believe those photos of first term abortions are fake, can you show us what it look like on 6 weeks to 12 weeks?

  5. Because the film is a HOAX. The fetus does NOT react in any purposeful manner to anything at 12 weeks gestation, and cannot scream. A 12 week fetus has no awareness of ANYTHING. What Nathanson tells you is the fetus's mouth is actually the space between the chin and chest. If you fell for this propaganda piece, you're very gullible and know nothing about fetal development.

  6. If a physician prescribes birth control pills one day, and Clomid or other fertility enhancing drugs the next day, would you feel that that physician must also be experiencing cognitive dissonance?

    Sixteen years after her mentor Dr. Barnett Slepian was murdered by an anti-choice extremist, Dr. Katharine Morrison has transformed the clinic he once led into a groundbreaking new venture. On Valentine's Day, Buffalo Women Services became the first abortion clinic and natural birthing center in the country. The facility provides both abortion services and the full spectrum of reproductive care — pap smears, prenatal visits and natural delivery, which is free from drugs, IVs and a schedule.

  8. if you mean the article I was referring to here it is

  9. **All this has led to a strange situation in the United States where some unborn babies are valued to the extreme and some are considered worthless.**

    The only way this would be interpreted as 'strange' is by someone who wished to force others to value things in the same way they do. This so-called 'strange' situation, is, in fact, the USUAL situation with almost everything you would care to name. Some people regard cats as highly valuable. Others regard them as fairly worthless, or even as food. Hindus regard cattle as being sacred.

  10. **I will highlight how this double standard of viewing one child as valuable and another as worthless based outside factors (typically the mother’s opinion) affects the medical profession in more subtle ways.**

    Translation: Recognizing economic reality offends forced gestationers, and they want to claim that doing so is somehow inherently undesirable, and that doctors should instead be forced to adhere to the forced gestationer fantasy view of the value of things.

  11. That is the nature of medicine. The whole thing is triage. So what is your beef? You would prefer no doctors so there are no life and death decisions? I say NO THANK YOU TO THAT.
    You do understand the word 'dissonance?' It does not appear that you understand the word or the nature of medicine.
    And yet, in spite of your ignorance, you want to be in charge of the sexual/family lives of women you will never know. Not sane.

  12. Believing the purpose of medicine is to improve life and restore health when possible and ease suffering when not is ignorance?

    Killing someone is not medicine. On the contrary it is the opposite of medicine.

    I have absolutely no desire to be involved in anyone's sex life.

    Believing that it should always be illegal to kill human beings is not about control; it is about protecting the rights of the most vulnerable human beings in our midst.

  13. Correct. Medicine is about promoting health and easing suffering. This medicine is in the tape below is easing suffering. And, son of a gun, there is killing involved.

    You are rigid, sanctimonious IMO and abysmally ignorant about this subject. But that does not keep your cold wet nose out of my bird, does it dog?

  14. Killing someone is not medicine. On the contrary it is the opposite of medicine.

    Assisted suicide is legal in two states. That assistance is medical.
    A fetus is not SOME ONE. Words have meaning. Except, of course, to the delusional.

  15. You sent me to a tortureporn and murderporn website. Sick freak.
    Can even one of you make an argument that is not a lie or a sick fantasy? Just one of you.

    I think it is worthwhile to reproduce what the report said so that it is clear to anyone SANE that you have LIED.
    So I will reproduce it here in segments for ease of reading.

  17. Several posters here are LIARS. OUTRIGHT LIES.

    These are the physicians who have participated in debunking THE SILENT SCREAM with a short introduction to the report:

    The Facts Speak Louder than “The Silent Scream”

    In the mid-1980s, leaders of the anti-abortion movement produced a video called The Silent Scream

    The video, epitomizing the anti-abortion agenda and strategy, tried to shift the focus of the abortion debate away from compassion for the health and needs of the woman to an exaggerated concern for the fetus.Although riddled with scientific, medical, and legal inaccuracies as well as misleading statements and exaggerations, The Silent Scream

    is still wildly popular with anti-abortion zealots. And it continues to be a key tool in their propaganda efforts.Originally designed to frighten American women away from choosing abortion, the video is now shown worldwide to troubled women who turn to so-called“crisis pregnancy centers” for assistance with their problem pregnancies. Clips from the film even run continuously on the World Wide Web.

    As soon as it was released, Planned Parenthood® recognized that The Silent Scream would be used to propagate harmful myths that could endanger women’s health and the constitutional right to choose abortion and jeopardize the lives and careers of abortion providers. To expose these distortions and deceits, Planned Parenthood convened a panel of medical experts to review and critique the video.

    Panel members were:

    Sally Faith Dorfman, MD
    Assistant Professor, Albert Einstein College of Medicine,Assistant Clinical Professor, Mount Sinai

    Hart Peterson, MD
    Chief of Pediatric Neurology, New York Hospital, Clinical Professor of Neurology in Pediatrics, Cornell University Medical Center

    William Rashbaum, MD
    Assistant Clinical Professor, Albert Einstein College of Medicine

    Seymour L. Romney, MD
    Professor, Ob/Gyn, Director, Gynecological Cancer Research, and former Chairman, Department of Obstetrics and Gynecology, Albert Einstein College of Medicine

    Allan Rosenfield, MD
    Professor, Ob/Gyn and Public Health, Acting Chairman, Department of Obstetrics and GynecologyDirector, Center for Population and Family Health, College of Physicians and Surgeons, Columbia University

    Herbert G. Vaughan, Jr. MD
    Professor of Neuroscience, Neurology andPediatrics, Director, Rose F. Kennedy Center for Research in Mental Retardation and Human Development, Albert Einstein College of Medicine

    Ming-Neng Yeh, MD
    Associate Clinical Professor, Dept. of Ob/Gyn Ultrasound Laboratory, Columbia Presbyterian Medical Center

  18. Now I will post the claims debunked in the report "The Facts Speak Louder than The Silent Scream" claim by claim.

    I hate a liar more than I hate a thief. A thief just steals things. A liar steals reality or tries to.

    The 12-week fetus experiences pain.

    At this stage of the pregnancy, the brain and nervous system are still in a very early stage of development. The beginnings of the brain stem, which includes a rudimentary thalamus and spinal cord, is being formed. Most brain cells are not developed. Without a cerebral cortex (gray matter covering the brain), pain impulses cannot be received or perceived.

    Additionally, experts find that newborns at 26-27 weeks' gestation (24-25 weeks' fetal age) who survive have significantly less response to pain than do full term newborns.

    The American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists Statement on Pain of the Fetus

    We know of no legitimate scientific information that supports the statement that a fetus experiences pain early in pregnancy.
    We do know that the cerebellum attains its final configuration in the seventh month and that mylenization (or covering) of the spinal cord and the brain begins between the 20th and 40th weeks of pregnancy. These, as well as other neurological developments, would have to be in place for the fetus to receive pain.

    To feel pain, a fetus needs neurotransmitted hormones. In animals, these complex chemicals develop in the last third of gestation. We know of no evidence that humans are different.

  19. Now I will post the claims debunked in the report "The Facts Speak Louder than The Silent Scream" claim by claim.

    I hate a liar more than I hate a thief. A thief just steals things. A liar steals reality or tries to.

    The 12-week fetus makes purposeful movements (e.g., agitated movement in an attempt to avoid suction cannula).

    At this stage of pregnancy, all fetal movement is reflexive in nature rather than purposeful, since the latter requires cognition, which is the ability to perceive and know. For cognition to occur, the cortex (gray matter covering the brain) must be present, as well as myelinization (covering sheath) of the spinal cord and attached nerves, which is not the case.
    An example of the reflex withdrawal without pain occurs in an anencephalic (absent brain) newborn. Another known example of the reflex movement at this stage of human pregnancy is thumb sucking in utero.
    What is termed "frantic activity" by the fetus is a reflex response of the fetus resulting from movement of the uterus and its contents induced by operator manipulation of the suction curette or the ultrasound transducer on the abdomen. This same type of response would likely occur with any external stimulus. A one-cell organism such as an amoeba will reflexively move or display a withdrawal reaction when touched.
    In addition, experts in ultrasonography and film technology have concluded that the videotape of the abortion was deliberately slowed down and subsequently speeded up to create an impression of hyperactivity.

  20. What is the difference between religious lies in the service of enslaving me and secular lies in the service of enslaving me? A lie is a lie.

    Here is another debunktion of Nathanson's lies and the lies, by extension, of the forced birth cultists who frequent this place:

    Ultrasonogram depicts the open mouth of the fetus.

    The mouth of the fetus cannot be identified in the ultrasound image with certainty. The statement that the screen identifies the open mouth of the fetus is a subjective and misleading interpretation by Dr. Nathanson. His conclusion is not supportable.

  21. Claim:
    The fetus emits "The Silent Scream."
    A scream cannot occur without air in the lungs. Although primitive respiratory movements do occur in the later stages of gestation, crying or screaming cannot occur even then. In fact, a child born prematurely at 26-27 weeks' gestation (24-25 weeks' fetal age) cannot scream but occasionally emits weak cries.

  22. Claim:
    Fetal head at 12 weeks requires the use of "crushing instruments" for extraction.
    At 12 weeks' gestation (10 weeks' fetal age) and even 1-2 weeks beyond, instrumentation other than a suction cannula is not required when abortion is properly performed. Cannulas for aspiration abortion come in varying sizes, and the larger sizes are adequate for withdrawing the contents of the uterus.

  23. To sum up – the anti science and anti law paskudnyacks here want to enslave me and plan to do such by utilizing the same few EXCITING LIES over and over again – just like the good Nazis they are.
    The most brilliant propagandist technique will yield no success unless one fundamental principle is borne in mind constantly and with unflagging attention. It must confine itself to a few points and repeat them over and over. Here, as so often in this world, persistence is the first and most important requirement for success.
    "War Propaganda", in volume 1, chapter 6 of Mein Kampf (1925), by Adolf Hitler

  24. You answer your own question when you speak of easing suffering when no cure is possible, Not every pregnancy is going to end happily. They don't even all BEGIN happily. No "human being" has any "right to live" inside my body.

  25. Come on now. I absolutely KNOW that teh kittehz are the absolute rulers of the earth and I exist only to open cat food cans! My masters have me very well-trained.

  26. If you will read the article of content, you will see that this is very rare, and not an option for monozygotic twins, who share a placenta and amniotic membranes. Furthermore, the pregnancy was staged at 24 weeks. This wasn't a case where one was delivered and the other *could* be aborted. The other one would need to be delivered, too. It can't just be beamed out of the uterus. Abortion refers to the termination of pregnancy (by natural or induced means) prior to viability. After viability, it's no longer an abortion. It's a delivery, even the delivery of a stillborn.

  27. It looks pretty much like a menstrual period. All the endometrial tissue and anything attached to it are suctioned out into a suction canister.

  28. Actually, 24 weeks isn't the cut off for legal abortion in several states. All a woman needs is a vague "health reason" and a physician sign-off, and she can kill her kid up until he or she exits the birth canal.

  29. I wish I could upvotes you by 1000. Excellent research! I'm going to bookmark your posts on this. The antis keep hanging on a thread of lies and misinformation.

  30. Tell me about it. Our cats and the neighbors cats think my only purpose is to feed them catnip. We have lots of catnip in the garden the cats can help themselves to but they demand I hand feed it to them. Sometimes I get a gift of a dead mouse.

  31. It sounds from your post that you don't trust women to make a decision. I don't think women wait up to the 24 week of pregnancy and come up with as you say, "a vague 'health reason'." It sounds like you are implying they are making up a trumped up reason to have an abortion. In reality most abortions occur in the first trimester. Abortions in the second and third trimesters are a decision made between a woman and her doctor and done for valid reason which is none of your business.

  32. Thank you. I cannot take credit for the research. That credit must go to the doctors who participated in the evaluation of Silent Scream. I will take credit for reproducing their work in a way that makes it clear on the internet.

  33. Find a museum with embryos in jars. Please.

    And… why, then, not all of pro-choicers think so?
    For example:
    Link on Naomi Wolf's text:

  34. Cats are evolving. Masters of the Universe indeed.

  35. I do not need to do that. I miscarried at 12 weeks into the toilet. I poked through the goo.

    Nothing even faintly resembling a human being was there. It was two inches long and about the size of a bloody gelatinous lime.

    How many babies have you birthed? I have birthed three.

    I am pro life so naturally I am pro reproductive freedom and privacy for women. Abortion and contraception are human rights.

  36. Well, I find that it's hard to believe that you said there was no arms, legs, or body. It's just a clump of cells at 12 weeks.

    So, I guess 13 weeks and older are just like that, too?

  37. I did not say it was 'just a clump of cells.' You argue by misquotation. How tacky. I gave its size and weight. I said it resembled nothing human.

  38. What difference does it make? If I do not want it and/or I cannot take care of it, it is out of here. Cry me a river.

  39. I am not. You did describe your fetus like two inches long and a size of lime that looks nothing like a human being, that sounds like it's a clump of cells to me…

  40. Bottomline, Piscialetto, there is no body until I make it out of my flesh and pain.
    I will decide when and if to do that.
    YOU will decide nothing. The state will decide nothing.

  41. What are you TALKING about? At the end of the embryonic stage, the embryo is about an inch long, and doesn't look like much.

  42. Why don't you look at pictures in an embryology textbook and get back to us when you are acquainted with reality? Usually when a woman has a miscarriage that early the pregnancy was abnormal from the beginning and the embryo died long before. I could post links to BabyCenter but you would just ignore them. But if your concience ever does get stronger than your blind desire to adhere to dogma, you can check out these videos from The National Geographic.

  43. So you agree that abortion is murder and torture? The page was about abortion. So its murder and torture. At last, you admit it

  44. You know, I was reading your nasty and vicious insults aimed at pro-lifers, and looking at your past posts,a nd I can't help but wonder- what are you doing here, Plum Dumpling? Obviously you know you won't convert anyone. You are on a pro-life site bashing pro-life people. Why? dont' you have better things to do? Shouldn't you be paying attention to your actual life, your family, friends, etc, rather than spending hours arguing with strangers online on a site that you oppose? Why expend so much time and energy trolling a pro-life site and bashing everyone? Why are you so obsessed with abortion and pro-lifers? Are you trying to justify your own decisions? Obviously, that is a personal question and you don't' have to answer it, but I can't help but feel that you are obsessed with this issue because you not at peace with something. Your trolling doesn't really bother me, or most of the people on this site. WE just dismiss you as a kook and ignore it. I am not bothering to come back and I assure you I will not lose a moment of sleep thinking about you. But you should ask yourself why you are so obsessed with attacking people you don't even know and spewing venom at us on our own site.

  45. I described a ten week fetus accurately. I miscarried one. I have given birth to three children. How many children do you have?

  46. Are you trying to justify your own decisions?

    I know I'm a little late to this party, but what is up with the constant anti-choice assumption that everyone who is pro-choice must be "trying to justify your own decisions," i.e., must have had an abortion?

    I'll tell you what; you guys don't lack for hubris. You think you know what everyone has done in their lives, and what is best for total strangers. It's amazing.

    I'm so embarrassed that I was ever "pro-life," you just don't know.

  47. What Fiona said. Some of us are asexual
    Many practice abstinence. Others already have children. Some prefer to never have kids. The unifying factor is that we all believe in bodily autonomy and not being treated as objects simply because we were born with a uterus. We are not all post abortive sloots and hoors who love abortion just because we can (not that there is anything wrong with that).

    I do find it amusing, however, that pro lifers get really offended when accused of misogyny, yet we deal with people who tell us, all of the time, that we are heartless baby killing sluts. We don't throw a tantrum and refuse to converse when insulted. We plow on, because we do not need to control the conversation or play the victim for pity points.

  48. I believe the poster was referring to handing out prescriptions for birth control to one patient, and fertility pills to the next. And YES, caring OB/GYNs DO abort pregnancies. I heard you said that women who are beaten and miscarry should be interrogated by police. You didn't REALLY make such a ridiculous comment, did you?

  49. Nancy, Don't you think a woman who is beaten and has a miscarriage should be helped? If a DOCTOR determines that a miscarriage was induced by a beating, he should have an obligation to report it to the police to be investigated. I NEVER said the woman should be 'interrogated'. If a woman who isn't pregnant comes to the hospital all beaten up, I think the police should investigate regardless of whether the woman asks or not. She may be under pressure by her evil boyfriend not to report it.

    Caring and killing don't go together.

  50. And she doesn't have to report it. And she doesn't have to go to the hospital. No one can MAKE her go, unless she's unconscious, she has a right to refuse. She has a right to refuse police involvement. And since she isn't a child, the hospital has no right or duty to report it. If she says "I fell down the stairs" they are obligated to take her word for it, no matter how dubious. Look, I'm a domestic violence survivor. I'm also a nurse. No, I didn't report it. All that would have done was eat up my time that I didn't have to waste or possibly put my daughter's father in prison and screw her out of child support. I chose to take the child and leave, and never go back. Problem solved. You can't treat women like children. They aren't children. "Help" is directing her toward a shelter if she needs one, and a PFA order. It's not informing law enforcement on her… "all for her own good, of course."

  51. My understanding is that some states at least have to report it. And, having a woman talk to someone in authority who will inform her that there is help out there is at least better than doing nothing and sending her back to an abusive situation.

  52. No, some states do NOT "have to report it." And she doesn't "have to talk to anyone in authority." She can tell them to kiss her big white ass, and go f*ck themselves in the town square. As I already said, women are NOT CHILDREN. She also doesn't have to go back to anything. If she wants to, that's HER CHOICE.

  53. That makes no sense. If you are pro-life, then you wouldn't support the KILLING and DEATH of the fetus. Death is the OPPOSITE of life. Refute me.

  54. There are a number of occasions when homicide is acceptable and pro the quality or safety of life for oneself or others: assisted suicide, defense of self or others for example.
    You are not awake intellectually or spiritually but you want to be in charge of my sexual/family life? When you can fly, Petunia. When you can fly.

  55. Self defense. That's it. If a woman's life is threatened than abortion is morally acceptable. Otherwise, it's not really justifiable. If you can look at pictures of aborted fetuses and say it's ok and your decision to have vaginal intercourse (notice how specific I am–there all KINDS of ways to get yourself off–you must be little prudish to not be completely aware of this–that don't involve vaginal intercourse) justifies the killing of your child, then you might just need a little help. The word, um, sociopath comes to mind…

  56. You probably should not have an abortion.
    I will have oodles of hot earth shaking sex.
    I will use contraception.
    If I become pregnant, I will give birth or abort as I see fit.
    Not as YOU see fit.
    Not as the State sees fit.
    The Asexual must not make rules for the normally sexed.

  57. Speaking now for the sluts and hoors – why would you want to force a slut and hoor to give birth by law? Do you dislike children?


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